Heidi Baker on miracles, healing and loving people who want to kill you

She may be known around the world for her supernatural healing ministry, but Heidi Baker insists she’s just a little person doing a little thing. 

It doesn’t sound small. Iris Global, the ministry that Heidi founded with her husband, Rolland, in 1980, now operates in 37 countries around the world. It turned over $13.5m last year, provided more than 9 million meals, treated 28,000 people at its medical centres and ministered to more than half a million through its community outreach programmes. And these are only the statistics the charity publishes; the Bakers stopped discussing the number of churches planted, people healed or souls won to Christ years ago, due to risk of persecution and a general feeling that it was unhelpful to the wider Church. 

The goal of Iris has always been to “stop for the one in need, compelled by the love of God,” the American missionary tells me. And it’s this genuine love for Jesus that makes me take what the 66-year-old says about feeling small seriously. When we speak, she’s back in California, recovering from a series of operations to her spine – damaged by many years travelling long distances on bad roads in rural Mozambique, where she has lived as a missionary for the past 30 years. 

She talks honestly about the mystery of seeing so many others supernaturally healed while not receiving that healing herself. About how she struggled to forgive – and love – the terrorists who have brought so much death and destruction to the region of Africa she calls home, the pain of saying goodbye to family members forced to flee as a result, and the miraculous conversion stories that came when she finally asked God to break her heart for what breaks his. ISIS terrorists, apparently. But it didn’t come easy.

Baker became a Christian aged 16 and married into a family with an impeccable faith heritage. Her husband is a third-generation missionary whose grandfather ran an orphanage in China where revival broke out in the 1920s. The late HA Baker recorded the extended visions of heaven and hell that the children in his care experienced in a book entitled Visions Beyond the Veil (Whitaker House). A century later, the Bakers’ ministry in Mozambique is marked by similarly supernatural outpourings.

Of course, such ‘charismania’ has its critics. Baker has been called a false prophet by those who object to her teaching style, her close association with Bethel Church in California – or simply the fact that she’s a female leader and speaker. It’s true that she sometimes delivers her message while lying face down on a stage (she says it’s how she hears God most easily) and that some find her style of delivery too emotional or undignified. But she’s also a woman who has given up the privilege of a comfortable American upbringing to serve one of the world’s poorest nations for almost 50 years. 

You’re well known for having a supernatural healing ministry, yet you’ve just had major surgery in a US hospital. Has anyone ever said to you: “You pray for all these other people to be healed. Why can’t you just pray for healing for yourself?” 

Oh sure! And I’ve received so much prayer. I felt better many times, but [the pain] would come back. I tried to avoid surgery for years but in the end, I felt this was the path I was to take. I had three major surgeries in five weeks. In my excruciating pain, the presence of God was so thick. Nurses and doctors would come in, asking for prayer. One woman said: “I don’t want to leave my shift, because when I walk in this room, it feels like a slice of heaven.” 

My heart is broken when I pass by empty UK churches. They shouldn’t be turned into pubs - they were built for the glory of God!

So, I would say: “Who are we to say how God wants to do something?” When we pray for people, his power and glory flows through us. When a surgeon operates, God’s power and glory flows through that surgeon – even if they’re pre-believers. It’s a mystery. God is God, and we’re not. Hooray! After so much study and systematic theology, I’ve just come to that place. I’m grateful for all the ways he heals.

I love that phrase – pre-believers – it’s much nicer than saying non-Christians!

Absolutely! They’re on their way to becoming believers. That’s my prayer.

Do you think God has intentionally made prayer and healing mysterious so we keep relying on him, rather than ourselves?

Absolutely. One time I had a really powerful impression of a room in heaven, full of body parts. It was strange, but really beautiful. I was super excited to go in there. The Lord said: “You can go in there when I tell you.” 

That confused me, because I had just had an impression of a room in heaven full of food, and I felt like we had access to that room all the time. I asked him why, and he said: “Because if you had full access, you’d be dead.” I thought: Oh, wow, that’s true! If I had full access to eyes, I would never stop praying. The blind would come from all over the world. If I had full access to kidneys, I would never sleep, because I would be handing them out all the time.

It’s just not like that. The Lord allows us to do what he’s called us to do. When you pray for the sick, if you pray with faith, humility and compassion, they will feel the love of God. Whether blind eyes are opened or not, if they feel the love, compassion and mercy of God, we have not failed. We have done what he’s asked us to do.

Why do miraculous healings seem to be more common in places like Mozambique compared to many Western nations?

I get asked this question a lot. When people from the Western world come to Mozambique, they’ll pray for deaf ears, and they’ll open. But in the West, there’s this beautiful miracle of cochlear implants. Where we live, if God doesn’t show up for people in a supernatural way, their illness, deafness, blindness remains – or they may die. 

I believe there’s also something about the simplicity of faith. They’re not doubting. Why would they? They know the supernatural realm in Mozambique, so they don’t doubt that the God of the universe would heal them. 

You live in Cabo Delgado, where there are reports of persecution against Christians. What’s been happening? 

It’s very, very severe. People in our churches have lost their lives. Farms and churches have been burned. When believers are persecuted, they’ll generally kill one Christian in front of many others and say: “Now tell everyone what you just saw. We don’t want any Christians here.” It’s awful. 

Just one minute from our home, they found a whole group of al-Shabaab [a militia affiliated to the Islamic State] with machetes and AK-47 guns. Our adopted son and his children moved to America because my grandchildren asked: “When they come to chop our heads off, are we allowed to deny Jesus? If they leave, we’ll invite him back in our hearts.” I mean, these are my grandchildren! A child should not be asking these questions!

How do you have those conversations with those you love?

That’s where you really have to seek the Lord. It’s been very hard for all of us. If it’s your little ones, you just really have to go to God and say: “OK, what are you asking of us?” And the answer may be different from what he’s asking of [someone else].

Can I tell you a testimony? Two years into this conflict, there was a threat on my life. Al-Shabaab was plotting to kidnap me, and one of the pastors was negotiating a price for me. To be honest, I was angry and scared. The Bible says, “perfect love casts out fear” [1 John 4:18, ESV]. Well, obviously I didn’t have perfect love, because I was terrified! 

My husband and I talked about it like: OK, if they shoot us or behead us, that’s one thing. We’re willing to die for Christ. We gave our lives away a long time ago. But we would sit in bed and say: “We just don’t want them to cut off one finger at a time – which is something they often do. They cut off one body part and the family members see it. We were like: Please let it be quick. 

You only have authority where you have love

Long story short, I had to get on a plane [and escape]. It was all very covert. I was still preaching the gospel and also sharing the story of this persecution. I was in a stadium, and I was the last speaker. A woman got up and said: “You need to forgive.” I’m thinking: OK, I’ve forgiven my sister, my mother, my husband – you know, the little list we have. Then the Lord said: “Have you forgiven al-Shabaab?” Then he went further: “Do you love al-Shabaab?” 

I was really upset with the question! I’ve always said: “You only have authority where you have love.” And here it was coming right back in my face! I started giving God my list of why I did not have to love al-Shabaab. I didn’t have to forgive them. They beheaded our pastor’s four-year-old. They tortured our people. I’m thinking of all the people we’re feeding who have lost their homes and are living in tents. I’m giving God my list, and the Lord asked me a question I’ll never forget. He said: “Do you want to ask me for love for them?”

I paused. I was sobbing because I was so angry – and I knew that when God asks you a question, he doesn’t want your list, he wants your yes. So, I said: “Lord, I want love. I do.” And he broke my heart for these kids – most of them are 17 or 18, they’ve been sold a lie and brainwashed into this awful evil. In that moment, everything changed.

The next day, my pastors [in Mozambique] called me, weeping. They’d been going to an all-night prayer meeting, and they were beaten by the military police, who thought they were al-Shabaab. One of the pastor’s eyes was down on his cheek. Another one’s arm was broken. I said: “We need to forgive them.” 

The next day, the military police realised their mistake. They came to our base and said: “We have a letter for you.” About two and a half years earlier, our prison ministry was shut down. The letter said that because of what had happened – and how we reacted – they wanted to give us full access not just to the local prison, but all the prisons in Cabo Delgado. We took in audio solar Bibles in four local dialects. We hadn’t led one al-Shabaab member to the Lord before this time of radical forgiveness. Now, the ISIS guys were falling on their knees, weeping in repentance, meeting Jesus as their Lord and saviour. Asking for love gave us full access to the prisons. 

You and your husband first started doing evangelism and outreach in Asia. You said that God told you to go and live among the poor in order to learn more about his kingdom. What did he teach you?

Desperation. Dependence. Generosity. Mercy. Courage. 

How do you hold on to those lessons, decades later?

You stay simple. We are very little people, loving God in a sea of need, and it often feels like our little offering of our little lives is like a drop in the ocean. All you can say is: “Lord, may you multiply your love in and through us one by one.” 

We’re very, very aware of how small and insignificant we are, but we just keep loving King Jesus, clinging to him and saying: “Lord, here we are, use us, take us, fill us, possess us, God.” 

It’s interesting to hear you describe yourself and your work as “small and insignificant”, because you’re one of the most well-known missionaries in the world. 

I am small. I am tiny. I don’t even understand this feeling of ever thinking you’re something. It’s all him.

I don’t understand ever thinking you’re something. It’s all him

It’s never about me. It really isn’t. I’m a little paintbrush in his hand, and I desperately don’t want people to ever look at the paintbrush. I want them to see the master. I yield myself to him, and what he paints is all for his glory. I just pray I don’t mess up the beauty of what he wants to paint.

You’ve just opened a university for the poor in Pemba. What does that mean, and where did the vision come from?

We live on the coast, and I was out snorkelling. When I’m face down in the water, I feel like I see things from a different perspective. I love to pray and commune with God face down – for me, it’s a place of dependence.

So, I was in my happy place with the Lord, and I heard: “Heidi, I want you to build a university.” I was so shocked, I sucked water into my snorkel! I grew up with severe dyslexia. I was mocked [at school]. I couldn’t read or write properly till I was 16, when the Lord miraculously healed me. I had hands laid on me in a healing meeting, and I went down [in the Spirit]. When I came up, God rewired my dyslexic brain. I could see the words on a page!

The Lord said, very clearly: “Start now.” I swam to the shore, got in my truck and went to our property, to this huge baobab tree. I took a bamboo stick and drew a circle around the tree. I just started calling: “Anybody want to go to school?” Children started coming. I’m crying, just remembering it! We never went out blatantly fundraising, but every time there were resources, we’d build one thing. The first classroom, God said: “Give it for the house of prayer.” Now, 23 years later, we are a fully accredited university. It’s the most miraculous thing – and crazy hard work. But if you don’t quit, you win!

I can see the joy on your face when you speak about it. Is this the thing that you’re most proud of?

It’s definitely one of them, because it was so impossible to build a university in the poorest province of the poorest nation in the world. I could speak for hours on the trials we faced – but we didn’t give up. God knows the timing. Sometimes you’re going to be pregnant with a promise for 23 years, but don’t abort that promise. Don’t miscarry it. Nurture the promise of God in your life and believe that God will surround you with people who will help you to birth the miraculous.

Has there ever been in a time when you’ve struggled to hear God’s voice or know his leading? 

Absolutely, I’ve been in that place many times. In fact, several times during long fasts, I have felt like I couldn’t hear him at all. But this is where I lean into the word of God. I ask him what book he might want me to meditate on and the Lord brings his rhema [specific, spoken] word to me. I don’t believe we can ever say God’s not speaking, because God’s spoken through his word, so he’s always going to speak to us through his word.

You lived in the UK while studying for your PhD. What encourages you about the British Church, and what challenges do you see?

When I go to the UK, I go to meetings where people are hungry. It’s mostly young people, and I am so encouraged. They’re going for it, loving Jesus with all their hearts. 

When God asks you a question, he doesn’t want your list, he wants your yes

When I pass by empty church after cold, empty church, my heart’s broken, because those churches should not be turned into pubs and apartments. They were built for the glory of God. So, I want to challenge believers in the UK to occupy those churches, to worship in those places, because they’re meant to be filled. They’re in every community, so let’s fill them up with his presence and his people.

What’s next for Heidi and Rolland Baker? What do you hope that your legacy is going to be?

Well, we’re not done with Mozambique, because the Lord definitely called us there. Yes, we’re little people in a little country, doing a little thing; however, it matters, because the Lord can multiply it. 

I just want to go to the nations, carry his glory and call people to lay their lives down for the one who is worthy, to live lives of radical intimacy for him. If all of us who love Jesus would just yield our little lives, start shining and go wherever he calls us and do whatever he calls us to do, no matter how tiny it is, then that light is greater than the darkness.   

To hear the full interview listen to Premier Christian Radio at 8pm on Saturday 10 January, or download ‘The Profile’ podcast premier.plus/theprofile