Prosperity preacher Kenneth Copeland has given his first interview in years. Here’s what we learned

If you haven’t heard of Bryce Crawford, the 22-year-old American evangelist, apologist and Bible teacher with more than 3 million followers on Instagram, it probably won’t be long before you do. A quick look on his YouTube channel shows conversations about everything from Islam to OnlyFans, and interviews with high profile (and often controversial) Christians including media commentator Tucker Carlson, disgraced Hillsong pastor Carl Lentz and most recently, prosperity preacher Kenneth Copeland. 

Kenneth Copeland is probably one of the best known exponents of the “health and wealth” school of evangelicalism (also known by its opponents as “name it and claim it”). This says the Bible teaches that Christians have been promised a prosperous life. It is often accompanied, controversially, by teachings that you need to first sow “seeds” into other people’s ministries in order to demonstrate your trust in God’s provision.

Coincidentally, a lot of prosperity gospel preachers are very, very rich. Copeland’s personal wealth is estimated to approach $500 million or more, with his ministry bringing in $100 million a year.

The prosperity gospel means people ultimately don’t follow Jesus simply to follow Jesus, but to have a materially better life

According to his granddaughter, Copeland has not done a media interview in more than a decade - so when he agreed to sit down with Crawford, it raised eyebrows in the mainstream Christian community. 

In the almost two hour long session, Crawford questions Copeland on his life and theology, beginning with soft ball questions around his childhood, early adulthood and initial conversion to Jesus. Here, Bryce shows his strength as an interviewer – he rarely interrupts and lets Copeland wander through his early decades, relaxing him into the experience and even getting him to sing when talking about how he wooed his wife Gloria. If we can say anything positive about Copeland, it’s that he has a lovely tenor, but you’d expect that from someone who first tried his hand at a music career before becoming a preacher.

Salvation or success?

About half an hour into the interview, Bryce turns to the prosperity gospel. And it’s here that the interview gets really interesting. Bryce allows Copeland to define his own terms - and he does so by quoting verses from across the Old and New Testament to argue that there is a promise of heirdom in salvation which includes prosperity.

He also makes the claim that once prophets of God speak something, it has to be and Satan can’t stop it happening. I find this basic argument to be lacking. Whether speaking about the blessing promised to Abraham in Genesis 17, Moses blessing the people in Deuteronomy 33, or Paul’s letters, Copeland has a tendency to see the word “blessing” and link it to references to “blessing” elsewhere in the Bible, arguing that they must necessarily be the same thing.

But the examples he uses are specific and contextual; they can’t necessarily be linked together. For example Moses’ blessing of the tribes before they enter the Promised Land is not the same as the blessing promised to Abraham - one is spiritual; the other is physical.

This tendency to leap around scripture without properly exegeting a chapter is a common criticism of prosperity preachers. You’ll hardly ever see consecutive verses unpacked and explained; it’s almost always verse hopping to prove a point.

Interestingly, when Copeland does try and exegete a passage (Romans 4, at around 59 minutes in) he skips four verses (9 to 12) that counter the point he is making. Romans 4 is about both Jews and Gentiles being heirs of salvation, so are both inheritors of the promise of salvation to Abraham. Verse 11 makes it clear that the discussion is about being saved from sin – which is what the first three chapters of Romans are all about. But Copeland wants to make the “promise…by faith” in Romans 4:16 about prosperity, not salvation.

This gets to the heart of the difference between mainstream Protestantism and the prosperity gospel. For the latter, salvation is not just about freedom from sin, it’s about then prospering. If your ministry has its own private jet, that’s just evidence you’re doing it right!

Poverty and prosperity

When Bryce challenges this view, he does so gently and winsomely. Where he can agree with Copeland he does so - but he also raises the questions of those who don’t see health and wealth in their life. Copeland’s response seems to be: “They didn’t have the right kind of hope / faith” or to blame them for unrepentant sin. This simply isn’t true. There’s a refusal to accept that some people might deeply trust Jesus with everything they have, but live in poverty and ill health their entire life.

Even when Bryce raises the issue of the rich young ruler in Luke 18, Copeland ploughs on with his theology, arguing (incorrectly) that the Greek word sozo used in Luke 18:26 refers to salvation from sin, healing and prosperity. Sozo does refer to salvation from sin. It can also mean healing, but this is a separate use of the word – much as the English word ‘match’ can mean to pair up or to compete in a game, but it doesn’t mean both at the same time. There’s no use of sozo in the Bible to mean prosperity. 

Kenneth Copeland’s personal wealth is estimated to approach $500 million or more

So, does Copeland’s first interview in more than a decade show any sign that the preacher has changed his views at all? On the basis of this conversation, no. Does that mean that, as Christians, there’s nothing to learn from it? Not at all.

If you’ve got the time and want to understand the prosperity gospel, this is actually a pretty good interview. Bryce lets Copeland unpack what he believes without interrupting, challenges gently and nails the crucial difference: that the prosperity gospel means that, ultimately, people don’t follow Jesus simply to follow Jesus, but to have a materially better life. I don’t think Copeland ever responds adequately to that.

It also helps us to understand where this particular heresy (because it is a heresy) fails theological, and to ensure our own church families do not fall for the misrepresentations of scripture that underpin it.

It should also push us to understand the Bible better, in particular the true message of salvation from sin that runs all the way from Genesis to Revelation, and how the promise to Abraham is finally delivered on a wooden cross and through the lens of an empty tomb.