Andy Flannagan: ‘I’m sadly watching the radicalisation of my peers’

It’s commonly said that “May you live in interesting times” is an ancient Chinese curse (“interesting” being a euphemism for turbulence and tragedy). But it turns out the saying is apocryphal – no Chinese source has ever been produced. Perhaps it’s fitting that the origin of this ‘curse’ about the depressing state of the world is shrouded in misinformation. After all, so much of the political upheaval we’re witnessing right now is being spurred on by fake news. 

See, for example, Tommy Robinson’s claim that 3 million people gathered for his ‘Unite the Kingdom’ march in London (police said it was 150,000). Or Alastair Campbell’s claim that Charlie Kirk believed “gay people should be stoned to death”. Campbell later apologised and retracted the error (we’re still waiting for Robinson). 

Interesting times indeed. If ever wisdom and leadership were needed in politics, it is now. Thankfully the leader of Christians in Politics, Andy Flannagan has plenty to offer in both departments.

The Northern Irish musician knows a thing or two about political polarisation. The anger and violence he witnessed as a child during The Troubles is now being mirrored in the online debates of today, he says. And the problem boils down to identity.

“When we don’t have our primary identity so firmly in Christ, we grab all the more strongly for these secondary identities in support of our tribe.” 

The temptation to make an idol of our politics can happen to any of us – regardless of political affiliation. Flannagan wants to help Christians avoid the pitfalls of either blind allegiance to one side or disengagement from politics out of a sense of misplaced piety. Instead, his vision is to mobilise and motivate Christians to be salt and light. To help us engage respectfully in public debates, have the mind of Christ and demonstrate the kingdom. Who could argue with that?

What’s more, Flannagan makes these goals sound achievable. He’s not afraid to constructively (some might say prophetically) criticise the Church. But he’s an encourager too. “The Church is doing an incredible job,” he says, speaking of our collective response to homelessness – and specifically the work of Green Pastures, who are housing thousands of people across the country.

You’ve long been an advocate of Christians tackling poverty and injustice. In recent decades you could argue much of the UK Church has mobilised around these issues. I think back, for example, to the Make Poverty History and “Drop the Debt” Jubilee 2000 campaigns. Are things going well?

The late 90s was an incredible time. We were really leading the narrative, and the Church was bringing these issues to the forefront in society. But I worry that we’re now in a much more selfish place. 

A lot of people just don’t have the headspace – between the cost-of-living crisis and having to work two jobs – to think about the state of the world. But the rich are still getting richer, and the poor are still getting poorer. The effects of climate change are far bigger than 30 years ago, yet somehow, we‘re a lot more silent on that stuff now.

I think, through lockdown, we‘ve become more anxious, and we’re all just trying to look after ourselves. It‘s understandable, but it does lead us to be less outward-focused. 

In the West now, so much of the public discourse is about security, keeping ourselves safe, keeping other people out. We are losing track of what we’re called to. This goes back to the theological root of God being a hospitable God who makes room for us at the table. Are we making room in our hearts for the other? Or are we allowing this wave of polarisation and the social media algorithms to cause us to blame the other? 

The divisive algorithms and polarisation of our politics can cause some Christians to wonder whether they should get involved at all. What’s your response?

I have huge sympathy for folks who accurately spot how divisive things are. But when people get involved [it breaks down division]. You end up going for coffee with people who think differently – and find out they’re not three-headed monsters! 

The big problem in modern society is that we’ve made the news our only information stream 

When you get involved, relationships can be built. But when you sit back, as some sort of armchair warrior just looking at what your side pumps at you, that’s when you get more and more angry. I’m sadly watching the radicalisation of so many of my peers. The stuff they’re posting is getting more and more angry and less and less informed, because it’s not drawing from a wide range of sources. That’s really dangerous. 

Christians in Politics put together prayer triplets back in 2014. It was intentionally multi-factorial [each person represented a different political party]. It’s been amazing to see how that has changed their tone – what they say in public, what they write on literature that goes through doors. And it’s because they’ve got dear friends they’re praying with. They know they can’t just slag off the other side or lie about them, because they’ll be seeing that person next week and they’ll have to answer for it! 

It’s massively improved the tone of the communication of those people, which is what we hoped. But those people have actually become far better politicians, too. They have been promoted more quickly. They’re shining because, in our current polarised state, we are raising up people who are brilliant at banging the drum for [one] side and rabble rousing. But when you expose these folks to the oxygen of a public debate and they have to persuade somebody, they can’t do it – because they’ve not been rubbing shoulders with people they disagree with. Folks who have been living and breathing with people from the other side of the aisle have proven themselves to be far better at politics – and we shouldn’t be surprised at that, because it’s God’s kingdom way. 

Sometimes people are concerned they’ll become ‘polluted’ by getting involved in what has been called the “mucky business” of politics. 

When people say this, I always smile and say: “Can I let you in on a secret? You’re already polluted!”

I could talk about the crystals in your mobile phone that are supporting slavery in Sub-Saharan Africa. I could talk about your pension that’s supporting the arms trade. I could talk about your petrol that’s supporting Middle Eastern states oppressing Christians and oppressing women. 

I’m sadly watching the radicalisation of so many of my peers

We’re not separate from this world. We are complicit in this system by our wallets, let alone our voting. We are already involved. The question is: What are we going to do now that we are involved?

This issue of the magazine is guest edited by Green Pastures, a Christian social enterprise which provides homes for the homeless. Tell me about your involvement with them.

It’s incredible to see what’s happening with all the people being housed by Green Pastures.

The reason Green Pastures are able to buy these houses is that they encourage Christians to invest their savings. So rather than putting your money into stocks and shares, which might be ethically questionable, you can invest with Green Pastures. In our case, we invested £3,000, and that gets layered up with other people investing and allows Green Pastures to buy a house. At the end of your investment term, you can withdraw your money with interest, or leave it with them for longer, and that helps them to buy more houses. 

Green Pastures are not just putting a roof over people’s heads, they’re building community. That’s because churches support the folks who are living in that property. 

We’ve all had interactions with folks who are homeless and struggling, and we know the transformation needs to be internal as well as external. In my experience, that is really only possible when somebody’s part of an accountable, sustainable community – and churches can provide that in the most powerful way. 

In our individualistic age, the ability to build community is one of the distinctive markers of the Church, isn’t it?

Paul said: “Remember the poor” [Galatians 2:10]. The early Church was famous for nobody being left out and everybody finding a home. It’s what made people come running towards the Church. It’s part of our DNA as believers.

Being involved with homelessness, you see people who have been oppressed by some fairly dark spiritual stuff through what they’ve been exposed to. You want to see supernatural breakthrough, like there was at Pentecost. That’s a hallmark of the early Church. The second hallmark was that people were provided for and there were no poor among them.

You want folks to find a place where they’re looked after and they can relax and start being the person God’s called them to be. That’s my prayer for the UK Church – that we clear the rubble and the madness and [stop] trying to impress everybody with our big lights and big screens. We long to see genuinely supernatural things happen. And we long to see a situation where people run towards us, because they can sense that if they come to us, they will not be in need. We will give some of what we have. 

We do it because we follow a hospitable God, a God who made room for us at the table. So, we try to make room at the table for others. It’s as simple as that.

The early Church were famous for nobody being left out, and everybody finding a home

I’ve heard people say that we need to start looking after the homeless in this country before we allow any more immigration. ‘How can we care for others when we can’t care for our own?’, they ask. What’s your response to that? 

I think we have to be really careful about false equivalence. You’ll find those arguments are being made by armchair warriors, very few of whom are actually involved in the fight against homelessness. The people who are actually involved are not saying that. 

Nine out of ten folks getting new tenancies in the UK are British born. So, I think that argument is a lazy, casually racist equivalence. 

But I do agree that we have a job to do. We need to put our own house in order, and we need to look after people on the streets – and the Church is doing an incredible job of that. 

Why is it so important that our service comes from a right attitude and mindset – and to have God’s heart for people?

It stops us becoming workaholics. I’ve got too many friends involved in NGOs who are tired and depressed – and not praying as much anymore – because, so often, the needs of the world are so huge, and the state of the world is so troubling that we start to believe it’s all on us.

We get into a dangerous place as the Church when we feel like we have to meet every need

I see a lot of people who are paralysed by the amount of need. But Jesus didn’t meet every need. He only did what he saw the Father doing [John 5:19]. You can’t solve trafficking and abortion and homelessness. There may be a particular area that God calls you to focus on – and we can get to know his heart in the context of that issue. 

We get into a dangerous place as the Church when we feel like we have to meet every need and do something about everything. We won’t be expert enough to do something about everything, we will just get absolutely knackered. 

When Covid first struck, the government’s ‘Everyone In’ scheme housed 39,000 people – an estimated 90 per cent of rough sleepers. Does that demonstrate that, if the political will is there, it really is possible to end rough sleeping? 

Possibly, in collaboration with NGOs and churches. It’s not something that can just be solved by politicians. 

We can’t talk about homelessness without talking about the massive need for more homes. There’s now a target to build 300,000 new homes. We’re streamlining planning procedures and drawing developers in. 

But some of the reasons for homelessness cannot be solved politically. There are some reasons, such as family breakdown or unhelpful personal decision making, that will always happen. There’s no magic wand, and we can’t imagine those things away.

If you asked me for a silver bullet that would affect so many issues across the political spectrum, it would actually be parenting. Parenting classes. That’s what I would love to see.

Statistics suggest homelessness is getting worse. As a Christian, what gives you hope to keep plugging away regardless? 

The news will always pivot towards the tragic and scandalous. The big problem in modern society is that we’ve made the news our only information stream. The news is valid, but we can’t allow it to become the whole thing, because we will get depressed and become paralysed if we do that. We should also be drawing from deeper wisdom, from community, scripture, wider reading, the beauty and joy we see in creation. 

We also need to be aware that we’re not called to build the kingdom like we’re building some sort of secular, progressive utopia. We’re called to demonstrate the kingdom. That might be just helping one person. Our calling goes back to Genesis 1. We are made in his image to be stewards of creation.  

There’s a dangerous thread of theology that’s wandering over from the US that says politics is just a necessary evil to constrain evil. This libertarian thinking says: “We’d rather we didn’t have to do this politics stuff. But because it’s a fallen world, I guess we have to.” In reality, it’s actually a divine calling. It’s a holy vocation. Before anything went wrong, Adam and Eve were called to this work. In Revelation 20:4, it’s promised that one day we will reign with him forever. This is our chance to apprentice in the meantime.   

To hear the full interview listen to Premier Christian Radio at 8pm on Saturday 18 October or listen to The Profile podcast