You say people are searching for something real - how is that expressed in your church when you meet together? What does that look like?It’s best viewed not when we gather, but when we scatter. We would even say in a church service, this is just a gathering for teaching, worship, maybe some information on the things that are going on, but the real church isn’t simply an hour or two on Sunday. For us, it’s endlessly the message: this is how we live together all week long, it’s at school, and it’s at work in the home, in the neighbourhood, in the car. It’s becoming the kinds of people Jesus wants to shape us into, who actually change the world around us. We actually are very intentional about saying this is just a gathering. The church is this group of people who live in the world in a certain way.
It’s best viewed not when we gather, but when we scatter. We would even say in a church service, this is just a gathering for teaching, worship, maybe some information on the things that are going on, but the real church isn’t simply an hour or two on Sunday. For us, it’s endlessly the message: this is how we live together all week long, it’s at school, and it’s at work in the home, in the neighbourhood, in the car. It’s becoming the kinds of people Jesus wants to shape us into, who actually change the world around us. We actually are very intentional about saying this is just a gathering. The church is this group of people who live in the world in a certain way.
There must be something good about that gathering to attract 10,000 people. Otherwise every church would attract that many. Tell me more about it.It’s very, very simple, very stripped down and when people visit they say, “I knew it would be simple but I didn’t know it would be like this”. Each Sunday we meet in a big shopping centre - the walls have been gutted out, it’s just plain white walls and open metal rafters and plastic chairs. It’s so minimal, it’s in a round, with a stage in the middle of the room. There might be 20-25 minutes of singing, then a talk for 45 minutes or an hour, then I say a benediction and then they leave. We don’t even take an offering. It’s so simple.
No offering is unusual! Nearly an hour of teaching. Is that why they come? Because you’re such a great teacher? Watch how I avoid that question! When you walk in someone will hand you a Bible, there are ushers who have Bibles, then the first thing I do is invite people to read with me from scripture. I’ve heard that the first teaching theme you addressed when you launched this new church was based on the book of Leviticus. Which is a very strange book to go for because Leviticus is full of dietary laws, laws on menstruation, laws on when your house has mildew on the walls… In what sense is that culturally relevant to your congregation?I went verse by verse for a year and a half. First and foremost, Leviticus raises questions about the human story. So, our understanding of the scripture is this unfolding story of redemptive history. Our question is what was going on at that time that God was doing? God is endlessly working through history to meet people where they’re at and take them through to the next place of obedience, of awareness, of living in harmony with God who created them. So what’s happening in Leviticus? Well, in Leviticus at that time, all the religions, you didn’t know where you stood with God.
Watch how I avoid that question! When you walk in someone will hand you a Bible, there are ushers who have Bibles, then the first thing I do is invite people to read with me from scripture. I went verse by verse for a year and a half. First and foremost, Leviticus raises questions about the human story. So, our understanding of the scripture is this unfolding story of redemptive history. Our question is what was going on at that time that God was doing? God is endlessly working through history to meet people where they’re at and take them through to the next place of obedience, of awareness, of living in harmony with God who created them. So what’s happening in Leviticus? Well, in Leviticus at that time, all the religions, you didn’t know where you stood with God.
So you’re endlessly offering, offering, offering sacrifice. That’s why child sacrifice in ancient religion is all through them. You don’t know whether the God’s are angry. Leviticus begins with, come, offer a lamb. We read that and go ‘how totally…’ oh wait, wait, wait…at that time in world history there were these groups of people in this obscure corner of the world saying “You can know where you stand with God, you can offer a lamb and then actually have a peace meal.”
In the evolution of religion and human thought that was an absolutely brand new idea. ‘The Gods aren’t angry, you can stand with this God’ and the lamb isn’t for God. Like in the psalm, the lamb is for you.
So for us, we begin with, there’s something brilliant here, let’s just dig around a while. Then all of a sudden, in Leviticus in the opening sections where there is a deep human anxiety about where we stand with the Gods this was an alternative to these world views. This God is a God of grace. Even the word sacrifice means to come near. We would assume in any text that it’s reflective of what God is doing at that time. If we can get down at that level, then all of a sudden it starts to open up.
Is Mars Hill an emerging church?We don’t ever use that word, because in our particular context, unnecessarily creating labels ‘are you in, are you out, are you one of them or not?’ seems to work against the spirit of Jesus. I don’t really care for these endless little stripes and labels you wear. ‘Can we all do this, can we all agree on that?’ That’s not a word that we would use. We would much rather put out the bread and the cup, and take communion together and talk about the Christ who unites us and heals us so we can be his hands and feet in the world.
How do you feel when ‘emerging ‘ is used to describe Mars Hill? Are you uncomfortable with that tag? Or is it just because it’s a tag and you don’t want any tag?
We don’t ever use that word, because in our particular context, unnecessarily creating labels ‘are you in, are you out, are you one of them or not?’ seems to work against the spirit of Jesus. I don’t really care for these endless little stripes and labels you wear. ‘Can we all do this, can we all agree on that?’ That’s not a word that we would use. We would much rather put out the bread and the cup, and take communion together and talk about the Christ who unites us and heals us so we can be his hands and feet in the world.If it’s a tag that refers to those who are serious about what I would argue is central to the Christian faith, which is the endless hard questioning of what it means to be the people of Jesus here and now, in this place and this time… what does it look like to be the hands and feet in this city, in this day and age - well then that’s a conversation, that’s not exclusive or even new to emergent [churches] and it’s the conversation that must endlessly be had with every community and every generation. So if that’s what they’re talking about, great. But if it’s some sort of group over here who believe they have somehow stumbled upon the keys to everything and everybody else is clueless then that is simply not helpful at all.
Here’s another tag. You lead a mega church. Is mega church good and something to be celebrated? Or is mega church something to be worried about? I’m very sceptical of the whole thing. I think it’s very dangerous, because it’s very easy to be about the event, to be about itself. Obviously, our community started off with my wife and some friends who were exploring what does it mean to be a Christ follower in the world? Let’s explore this. There are some things we are desperately searching after here. Then it turned into, ‘Hey this is pretty big’. So the question I have endlessly asked is, ‘God could you maybe thin this out? because this is really scary. There are lots of landmines and pitfalls everywhere.’ My journey has been coming to terms with, ‘OK, this has happened. This giant crowd has gathered.’ So I can run from it, or I can do the hard work of stepping into [it] saying, “OK, there’s a spotlight here. People are watching, well then, what are we going to be about?”
This past Sunday on the stage, next to me where I was preaching was a giant bucket filled with coats. Because one in five people in our city live in poverty and in Michigan it starts snowing, it gets bitterly cold and large numbers of kids do not have coats. They go to school in tshirts in weather where it’s snowing and there’s ice on the ground and that’s not right. We don’t think Jesus thinks that’s right, so if you come you have to sit through a message where there’s a bucket and as the service is starting, people are putting coats in this giant bucket. For us, the question is, ‘how can we take this tremendous gathering of people which includes, resources, gifts, talents and steer it toward the most forgotten, the most repressed, single mums, those who have lost their jobs, AIDS sufferers in Africa? How can we do what we believe Jesus would do? How can we convert this into those who have no voice and have no resources and have nobody advocating for them?’ That’s our challenge.
Rob, you’re a name, you’re becoming more and more well known. Part of that recognition and spotlight you say you are quite uncomfortable with, but you also recognise that it gives you a platform to speak into people’s lives. As you know recently a high profile American evangelical church leader made the headlines for all the wrong reasons. The leader of a mega church who had George Bush’s ear, resigned amid claims he paid for gay sex and drugs. What do you do in your life to ensure you’re not the next victim – the next high profile minister to fall? I have some very specific things. Number one, I wake up each morning and make lunches for my boy’s school backpacks. This is a sacred ritual that I’m missing today and it’s killing me. I’ll be back in my routine in a couple of days. Then my wife and I make our boy’s breakfast and we take them to school. For me, if everything I am saying isn’t lived out, if I’m not in the endless process of learning to live this out with my wife and my kids and my neighbours and my friends, then I have no business going out and spouting off about all of this.
My wife and I work very hard to keep our life exceedingly normal. So I am home every evening, the evening is my family. We go and see our friends, or help out over here or do something. I have some close friends who have walked with me, I have one friend who calls probably every other day and asks me, ‘How are you doing? What’s going on? I noticed the other day you said this...’ So I have a community of people who love me and my wife and my family very much.
Just the other day we took the planner for 2007 and just laid it out for them. They will literally [ask] ‘Is there enough time for quiet, meditation, reflection? Is there enough time you are totally disconnected from responsibilities so you can rest, heal?’ The community is very serious about ‘You should not be here all the time.’ This [trip to the UK] is the longest I’ve been apart from my boys in years. Normally they go everywhere with me or I go with them.
We have set up our life so it’s extremely normal and connected and grounded in everyday life. I have people who love me, who tell me the truth right away, so anything that would start to veer off track, they have full licence and do say “Let’s talk about this...” That’s why I am so serious about being a part of my own church in a real life community with every week people being diagnosed with cancer, this couple’s baby has medical problems and this guy lost his job. That’s life, it’s not even interviews. This is wonderful and nice but it’s not real life.
I’m under no illusions that I’ve some sort of influence or fame, that’s not what the gospels are about. It’s not about me, it’s not about building a bigger empire, it’s not about how much stuff you sell, whatever, that holds no kind of romance to me.
That’s powerful but that’s quite counter the Evangelical culture which is often about selling product, preaching tours…being on the road, if you live by that you must have to say ‘no’ to so much stuff including things that could be quite cool? Or does that not appeal to you? Evangelical culture is terribly sick in America. It’s absolutely disgusting and it is in no way a representation of what Jesus has in mind. It’s actually anti- Christ in its orientation. I love writing, I love the fact that Velvet Elvis the book is connecting with people or the Nooma films connect, that’s very moving, terribly humbling, if what I create helps people that’s wonderful. So I celebrate that, but this odd list of so and so’s, it’s sick - actually people lose their souls in the process.
Evangelical culture is terribly sick in America. It’s absolutely disgusting and it is in no way a representation of what Jesus has in mind. It’s actually anti- Christ in its orientation. I love writing, I love the fact that Velvet Elvis the book is connecting with people or the Nooma films connect, that’s very moving, terribly humbling, if what I create helps people that’s wonderful. So I celebrate that, but this odd list of so and so’s, it’s sick - actually people lose their souls in the process.
Jesus talks about gaining the world and losing your soul, you can do that with religion. We see it in business, but people can use Jesus in the same way. Cause it’s God, people pass it off as the Lord’s work.
What do you say to people who ask, ‘can you sign my book?’ I have no problem, I’m honoured to sign a book. When the signing of that book does something to my heart, then we’ve lost the plot. When something grows dark in our heart, some sort of line has been crossed.
What is your new book out next month about?The title is but the subtitle is. Essentially it begins with what does it mean to be human, fully human and any understanding of sexuality you have to start there. It’s really about far larger issues. When you talk about sex and people’s longing for connection with each other, it’s a picture for our longing for connection with God that we were made for connection. The word sex comes from a Latin root that means to be cut off or severed. We’re born into a world of disconnection, we’re disconnected from the earth, from each other, from God and ourselves. People say “I don’t know who I am”. So, sexuality is all of the ways that we are aware of this cut off state we’re in and the desire to reconnect. What does sexuality look like across the spectrum? Some of the most sexual people I know are celibate. They’ve given themselves to connecting with others, with God, with creation. Often sex gets narrowed down to a small dimension. So the book looks at that. I’m thrilled it’s going to come out.
John Buckeridge is the senior editor of Christianity magazine.
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